Wah, suddenly this topic springs into life liao.....I know that
Catholic and Protestant will never agree on this.
If faith leads to good works and salvation is by faith alone -
what does that mean?
If it feels good to know that one is saved (like those teaching
of once saved always saved) by faith and that's a done deal. So be
it.
What I am saying here is that this was not supported by the
bible completely. Dumbdumb cannot prove and did not show from
biblical point of view....All this about going to church and love
God.....from where?
Sorry that dumbdumb feel offended.
If salvation is by faith alone, all Christians will confirm go
Heaven. If you says not all Christians have good or correct faith,
then you are attaching conditions to faith. An arguement that will
contradict your positions right?
Why did Jesus says that : "It is not those who say to me,
"Lord, Lord", who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person
who does the will of my father in heaven"??
MT7:21
There are various other instances (some I lready mentionedd in
my earlier posts) in the 4 Gospels that Jesus warn us about getting
into heaven. Do we even bother to listen to Him?
dumbdumb said he disputed what I said, but which part of the
bible was quoted wrongly to support my view? I did not remember
reading one....
I am not here to win, just to discuss.....your view and mine but
must have basis from the bible. Then we can all reflect and search
and find the truth right?
just came back from the wake. Yes! i dispute what you say that
good works are needed for salvation!
Fine, i'll quote an entire paragraph for you. Since you're too
thick to understand my quote.
Jesus annointed by a sinful woman. (Luke 7:36 -
50)
I'll retype this instead of quoting word for word, for
convenience sake.
Here, it is written, that Jesus was invited to a Pharisee's
house for dinner. The pharasees as we know, are one of the schools
of thought of judaism, icemoon, can probably explain better, but
i'll just classify them as a religious leader of sorts.
the pharasees were religious people, people of rules and
regulations, they were strict about following the laws of God,
definitely holy people. They fast, they pray, they obey God's
commandments. They're the equalvalent of the modern day priest, or
pastor.
And what do we see here? Out of nowhere, a sinful woman
appeared, most probably a prostitute, and peered into the crowd,
trying to spot Jesus. The bible says that she learned that Jesus
would be having dinner at this religious leader's house. How did
she hear it? I don't know, most probably she heard Jesus preaching
and overheard the pharisee inviting Jesus. She was definitely not
invited. But what drove her to Jesus' house? She's a prostitute,
and she knows that everyone knows that she's a prostitute. If I am
a prostitute, I would definitely not go to a place filled with holy
people. But why did she do that? Did she hear Jesus preach in the
streets? Was the message a message of fear and condemnation, that
if she didn't follow His way, she was doomed to the pits of hell?
or did she hear the message of love and acceptance?
I'm sure it's because she heard the message of love and
acceptance from Jesus. Because it's evident from her actions. She
brought along with her a jar of really expensive perfume, probably
her only jar, which costed her everything, and showered Jesus with
love. Using her tears to wet his feet, and her hair to dry them.
And annointed His feet with the perfume.
And all the holy people were shocked, the bible reveals to us
the private thoughts of the pharisee. "Iook at that disgusting
SINFUL prostitute! How can Jesus, the self-proclaimed son of God,
allow such a sinful person to touch Him?? Does He know who she has
touched or what she has done with those hands which are touching
His feet? How disgusting!"
And Jesus heard it, and simply replied, that this woman, does
what she does, because she is driven by the love of God.
This pharisee, also heard the same message that Jesus preached.
But look at the content of his heart. Sure, he does everything
right, and according to the laws of God and the prophets, but his
heart is empty of love. He does good works his entire life,
but he didn't do it because he loves God.
Washing of feet is customary to the jews of that time, again,
icemoon please confirm for me, it's an act of courtesy. The
pharisee, and the sinful woman, both heard the same message, and
yet, they both responded differently from each other. The sinful
woman's heart was filled with love, and automatically, good works
pour out from her.
The pharisee, on the other hand, who was holy in the sight of
man, who did good works his entire life (in modern terms - going to
church, going to cell, praying, fasting, blah blah blah) didn't
even show common courtesy to Jesus. His works weren't driven by
love, but probabily by obligation, and become routine for him.
And Jesus honoured the woman above the pharisee. And He said
this loving words to her, "Your sins are forgiven, Your
faith has saved you, go in peace"
And the object lesson which Jesus pointed out is this:
He who has
been forgiven much, loves much, He who has been forgiven little,
loves little.
Forgiveness comes first, then love sets in, and good works will
come after that. That's how it is.
Again, I will mention, to those obviously deaf and blind to the
love of God, - A christian, who loves God, will goto
church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love
God. A person who is saved, and knows the cost of
salvation, and rests securely in love, and loves in return, will
automatically produce good works of love. But a person who does
good works, may not be saved.
Was it the woman's faith, when she accepted and fully trusted
the love of Jesus, which saved her? Or her good works which saved
her? Because if you're talking about good works, She only did one
good work, at that point of time, the rest of her life was in
sin.
Whereas the pharisee, who lived his entire life in good work,
was put to shame by Jesus.
So now, about you? Do you think at this point in life, you are
saved by God?
